Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2026-04-02 18:10:03 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I've never used it, but that sounds like an excellent update |
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| 2026-04-02 18:13:01 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: cooooooool |
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| 2026-04-02 18:16:35 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: that seems to be blocked only on a bounds bump in linear-accelerate; I've pinged the maintainer. :) |
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| 2026-04-02 18:19:40 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 2026-04-02 19:04:11 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: will it be five years untli the next update? |
| 2026-04-02 19:04:50 | <tomsmeding> | I don't know! |
| 2026-04-02 19:05:02 | <tomsmeding> | I hope not, but that's out of my hands :) |
| 2026-04-02 19:05:35 | <tomsmeding> | This was my last act of vengeance here in Utrecht before I leave for a postdoc :) |
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| 2026-04-02 19:09:08 | <Athas> | A productive end. |
| 2026-04-02 19:11:02 | <tomsmeding> | At least, Ivo's intent is to have a release earlier than five years from now, but then, previously there was also an intent. |
| 2026-04-02 19:11:19 | <davean> | tomsmeding: haha, why has it failed to get updates? Its lack of maintanership really hurts it. |
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| 2026-04-02 19:12:52 | <tomsmeding> | davean: the people "connected" with accelerate fall into 3 categories: 1. moved on (other job, other interests, etc.); 2. is a full professor and is busy; 3. is a PhD student and is busy |
| 2026-04-02 19:13:32 | <tomsmeding> | I wasn't even officially connected to accelerate, really, but I dragged myself into it (for better or for worse), and am now transitioning from 3 to 1 |
| 2026-04-02 19:14:03 | <davean> | Well what is your postdoc? |
| 2026-04-02 19:14:05 | <EvanR> | someone write "AI" somewhere on accelerate to get more funding and support |
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| 2026-04-02 19:14:19 | <tomsmeding> | currently forming is a new category containing 1 person who is not moving on and yet not a PhD student any more. We'll see how that category develops |
| 2026-04-02 19:14:20 | <Athas> | Also, Accelerate comprises many packages, so release engineering is harder than a tag (I suppose). |
| 2026-04-02 19:15:00 | <tomsmeding> | davean: I something in an area that could involve Accelerate, but likely will not for practical reasons |
| 2026-04-02 19:15:27 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: kinda yes, but also what's mostly slow is getting everyone to respond to an email. |
| 2026-04-02 19:15:43 | <tomsmeding> | also fixing all the bugs in the GPU backend. That took us a year or so |
| 2026-04-02 19:15:52 | <tomsmeding> | (There's probably more!) |
| 2026-04-02 19:16:12 | <Athas> | I have heard that some released software has bugs, so maybe fixing them all is not necessary before tagging a release. |
| 2026-04-02 19:16:42 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: having the thing segfault when running a program with more than a few kernels is not something that I'd want to release on my name |
| 2026-04-02 19:16:58 | <davean> | Athas: People who release buggy software should be ashamed |
| 2026-04-02 19:17:11 | <davean> | Its kinda a plauge of this era that people really are so sloppy with the software they release. |
| 2026-04-02 19:17:12 | <tomsmeding> | (and I was the only one willing to do the work to make an actual release, so the known-buggy release indeed didn't happen) |
| 2026-04-02 19:18:37 | <tomsmeding> | davean: if you replace "buggy" with "known-buggy", then I can get on board |
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| 2026-04-02 19:18:47 | <EvanR> | just don't make mistakes smh |
| 2026-04-02 19:18:57 | <davean> | tomsmeding: the problem with that is people aren't putting in the effort to look much lately. |
| 2026-04-02 19:18:57 | <tomsmeding> | well it's haskell already, so what can go wrong |
| 2026-04-02 19:19:07 | <EvanR> | this tbh |
| 2026-04-02 19:19:10 | <EvanR> | xD |
| 2026-04-02 19:19:15 | <tomsmeding> | davean: if you haven't made an effort to look, it's kinda known-buggy, isn't it? |
| 2026-04-02 19:19:18 | <davean> | I'd have said "known-buggy" even 15 years ago. |
| 2026-04-02 19:19:26 | <davean> | tomsmeding: They sure don't think so1 |
| 2026-04-02 19:19:33 | <tomsmeding> | :p |
| 2026-04-02 19:20:05 | <davean> | If we can agree on a reasonably extensive QA process I'm happy to only say known bugs. |
| 2026-04-02 19:20:19 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: tangentially, turns out that "when it compiles it works" comes crashing down HARD once you do weird stuff with a GPU driver |
| 2026-04-02 19:20:21 | <davean> | But I know a lot of people who ship it when it runs at all and think its fine. |
| 2026-04-02 19:21:33 | <davean> | Its a bit harder to test GPU compilers, esp since a lot of what you're debugging is the GPU stack |
| 2026-04-02 19:22:42 | <EvanR> | I blame the compiler in the driver |
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| 2026-04-02 19:24:27 | <davean> | I probably am impacted by more software bugs each month now than I dealt with in the entir 2000-2005 period. |
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| 2026-04-02 19:25:01 | <davean> | Software was not good then, not at all, but its complexity vs. the effort put in was a bit more in balance. |
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| 2026-04-02 19:25:16 | <tomsmeding> | davean: I can say with certainty that accelerate's current testing regime is beneath your standards, but at least it's slightly better than it was a few years ago |
| 2026-04-02 19:25:16 | <davean> | I was impacted a lot more by it just not having features. |
| 2026-04-02 19:25:48 | <davean> | tomsmeding: I kinda assume for accelerate you need a lot of users to actually start testing well because of the complexity of the stack you sit on top of. |
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| 2026-04-02 19:26:02 | <davean> | the problem with that is it so often is broken no one can rely on it to start using it,. |
| 2026-04-02 19:26:13 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2026-04-02 19:26:22 | <tomsmeding> | well, I think it works well enough now for people to start testing it :) |
| 2026-04-02 19:26:39 | <davean> | Sure, the problem is will it work in a year? :) |
| 2026-04-02 19:26:40 | <tomsmeding> | the CPU backend worked well enough for a long time already, by the way; it was the GPU backend that was unstable |
| 2026-04-02 19:26:46 | <tomsmeding> | I dunno! |
| 2026-04-02 19:27:18 | <tomsmeding> | Mostly depends on how backwards-compatible LLVM's IR format is, and how backwards-compatible CUDA turns out to be next year round |
| 2026-04-02 19:27:31 | <davean> | I get hesitant every time I consider designing something that relies on accelerate for this reason :) |
| 2026-04-02 19:27:40 | <tomsmeding> | the former seems to be fine so far |
| 2026-04-02 19:28:08 | <davean> | Hum, so CUDA software I have from 2008 still works fine. |
| 2026-04-02 19:28:13 | <davean> | There is something more |
| 2026-04-02 19:28:39 | <davean> | (I recently found out, because someone got me to fix the compile on an ancient game project) |
| 2026-04-02 19:28:40 | <tomsmeding> | if you try to bind CUDA functions from Haskell, you're more exposed to the function name shuffling they do under the hood |
| 2026-04-02 19:28:58 | <tomsmeding> | doing this (instead of writing the CUDA glue code in C) was probably a mistake, and one that is in the plans of being fixed |
| 2026-04-02 19:29:30 | <davean> | Ah yah if you're trying to hook it yourself instead of use the compiler which is what their spec actually is ... good luck! |
| 2026-04-02 19:29:32 | <tomsmeding> | davean: and very old stuff is more likely to still work than the fancy thing from 2 years ago |
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| 2026-04-02 19:29:36 | <davean> | and I don't mean that encuragingly. |
| 2026-04-02 19:29:41 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 2026-04-02 19:30:23 | <tomsmeding> | in any case, the people hacking on accelerate are aware of all this, but there's little incentive in the academic system to spend the hours to fix it |
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| 2026-04-02 19:35:23 | <davean> | tomsmeding: does it have an AMD backend these days that works? |
| 2026-04-02 19:35:33 | <tomsmeding> | there's plans for one |
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