Logs: liberachat/#haskell
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| 2021-05-23 02:41:40 | <boxscape> | hmm |
| 2021-05-23 02:41:43 | <nshepperd> | you can wrap the resulting STRef in an existential container to hide the s, in which case yes, the result is in some sense different but the difference is useless |
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| 2021-05-23 02:44:36 | <nshepperd> | what i said is really just a complicated way of saying 'runST foo is referentially transparent' |
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| 2021-05-23 02:45:15 | <dmwit> | stToIO lets you return it without wrapping in an existential. Yes, runST foo is referentially transparent but my read of the question is that we are explicitly asking about the unsafe version where we don't use runST. |
| 2021-05-23 02:46:40 | <dmwit> | Here's a better example of my objection: if you wrote `main = do { x <- stToIO (newSTRef 'a'); y <- stToIO (newSTRef 'b'); print (a == b) }` I think GHC would be within its rights to make a program that sometimes printed True and sometimes False. |
| 2021-05-23 02:47:48 | <dmwit> | Okay, I had to use stToIO on two actions instead of just one. But I think this is still in the spirit of boxscape's inquiry. |
| 2021-05-23 02:48:00 | <boxscape> | I think so |
| 2021-05-23 02:49:39 | <nshepperd> | a == b? |
| 2021-05-23 02:49:47 | <dmwit> | Yes. STRef implements Eq. |
| 2021-05-23 02:49:52 | <boxscape> | x == y |
| 2021-05-23 02:49:59 | <dmwit> | Oh, sorry. Yes, x == y |
| 2021-05-23 02:50:01 | <dmwit> | lol |
| 2021-05-23 02:52:09 | <nshepperd> | what this tells us is that it's important that the s in forall s. ST s Something is not free in Something |
| 2021-05-23 02:52:43 | <boxscape> | ah, interesting |
| 2021-05-23 02:52:48 | <dmwit> | Yes. That is exactly the constraint that runST enforces. |
| 2021-05-23 02:53:27 | <dmwit> | If you restrict your stToIO'ing to things you could have runST'd in the first place, sure, you're safe. But then... why didn't you just runST it? |
| 2021-05-23 02:54:09 | <boxscape> | because the original question was about IO :) |
| 2021-05-23 02:54:36 | <boxscape> | but yeah, fair point |
| 2021-05-23 02:54:46 | <dmwit> | Okay. Well, IO Something is even more emphatically not guaranteed to produce the same Something every time. |
| 2021-05-23 02:55:00 | <boxscape> | yeah |
| 2021-05-23 02:55:29 | <boxscape> | the question basically became, what restrictions do we have to impose to make it so |
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| 2021-05-23 02:58:23 | <dmwit> | I think it's hard to safely do much better than ST. I think there's some work out there on using concurrency as an implementation technique, but making it safe by exposing an API that only allows parallelism. |
| 2021-05-23 02:58:46 | <boxscape> | I see |
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| 2021-05-23 03:01:26 | <nshepperd> | lvish, wasn't it? that whole lattice based framework for 'deterministic parallelism' |
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| 2021-05-23 03:02:24 | <dmwit> | Yeah. There's been a couple attempts, I think, though my recollection is that one is the most sophisticated of them. |
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| 2021-05-23 03:17:15 | <V> | liv: which V are you thinking of? :o |
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| 2021-05-23 03:34:27 | <pavonia> | This V perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_(character) :3 |
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