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2020-09-19 18:25:45 lep-delete is now known as test
2020-09-19 18:25:57 <davean> I wish people were more accepting of changes to 'base'
2020-09-19 18:26:07 <davean> Theres a lot to improve
2020-09-19 18:26:15 test is now known as Guest38587
2020-09-19 18:27:35 → silver joins (~silver@178.121.68.26)
2020-09-19 18:27:42 <davean> Haskell needs to accept more changes to 'base' IMO, yes people feel a tiny bit of pain in the short term but its mostly a shared burden thats not actually that much time to update all of hackage to, and then we've got something better forever.
2020-09-19 18:27:48 <Uniaika> we should make secession from the standard
2020-09-19 18:27:58 <Uniaika> or make it evolve with the current times
2020-09-19 18:28:02 <davean> Uniaika: its not the standard that's really the problem
2020-09-19 18:28:10 <davean> Uniaika: There was supposes to be a Haskell2020
2020-09-19 18:28:25 <Uniaika> CSS3 had it right I think, by having mutiple standards that can evolve and stuff
2020-09-19 18:28:33 <davean> Uniaika: Theres a report committee. Its not like the report can't change. I'd say the screaming about changes is the real problem.
2020-09-19 18:28:40 <Uniaika> davean: Haskell2020 failed us :P
2020-09-19 18:28:55 <davean> It failed us because no one wanted changes people could get behind :-p
2020-09-19 18:29:03 <Uniaika> :)
2020-09-19 18:29:23 <davean> Uniaika: were you not here for AMP and F/T?
2020-09-19 18:30:07 <davean> Haskell2020 can get unjammed if people get behind changes.
2020-09-19 18:30:17 × ryansmccoy quits (~ryansmcco@156.96.151.132) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-19 18:30:43 → ryansmccoy joins (~ryansmcco@193.37.254.27)
2020-09-19 18:31:24 → knupfer1 joins (~Thunderbi@mue-88-130-61-068.dsl.tropolys.de)
2020-09-19 18:31:43 <Uniaika> AMP was in 2014
2020-09-19 18:32:00 × juuandyy quits (~juuandyy@90.166.144.65) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-19 18:32:09 × ixlun quits (~matthew@148.252.22.43) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-19 18:32:10 → solonarv joins (~solonarv@astrasbourg-653-1-186-165.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-09-19 18:32:14 <davean> yes, yes, I know. Some people are only returning to Haskell now because they were so driven off by the screaming of people resisting such a basic change.
2020-09-19 18:32:33 <davean> Thats my point
2020-09-19 18:32:34 × _ks quits (~kevin@nyc-0.mil.lat) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2020-09-19 18:32:48 <davean> if people aren't over AMP 6 years later we can't have nice things.
2020-09-19 18:32:57 hackage uniqueness-periods-vector-examples 0.5.2.0 - Examples of usage for the uniqueness-periods-vector series of packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-examples-0.5.2.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-09-19 18:33:16 <Uniaika> yeah sorry, so I was not in Haskell-land at that time
2020-09-19 18:33:31 <davean> It was rediculous.
2020-09-19 18:33:37 × dominik quits (~weechat@aftr-62-216-207-98.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-09-19 18:33:48 knupfer1 is now known as knupfer
2020-09-19 18:34:13 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-19 18:34:26 <Uniaika> I can imagine
2020-09-19 18:34:39 <Uniaika> and look where we are now! A complete wasteland!
2020-09-19 18:34:45 <Uniaika> Haskell is dead because of that!
2020-09-19 18:34:46 <Uniaika> (/s)
2020-09-19 18:34:59 <MarcelineVQ> meet the new boss, same as the old boss
2020-09-19 18:35:00 <dolio> Because of which direction? :)
2020-09-19 18:35:15 × p-core quits (~Thunderbi@koleje-wifi-0046.koleje.cuni.cz) (Quit: p-core)
2020-09-19 18:35:22 <monochrom> The other wasteland is not greener. >:)
2020-09-19 18:35:33 → p-core joins (~Thunderbi@koleje-wifi-0046.koleje.cuni.cz)
2020-09-19 18:35:51 <davean> Uniaika: it sapped a lot of the people pushing new things I was here for because it was so hard to get and they needed more to move further.
2020-09-19 18:35:56 <davean> Uniaika: so uh, it kinda is?
2020-09-19 18:36:02 <davean> I mean as a language its fine
2020-09-19 18:36:09 <davean> but we've not moved forward much.
2020-09-19 18:36:18 <davean> So ...
2020-09-19 18:36:22 <MarcelineVQ> What is the metric for that?
2020-09-19 18:36:43 <Uniaika> looks like we need to get our skin harder for the next feces slinging
2020-09-19 18:36:47 <davean> MarcelineVQ: enabling me to do new things that make solving problems better :-p
2020-09-19 18:37:20 <Uniaika> :)
2020-09-19 18:37:25 <merijn> The problem with Haskell2020 is that the "fun stuff" people wanna do is not the blocker
2020-09-19 18:37:42 <merijn> The blocker is the need to specify the semantics of a bunch of things beyond just 'what GHC does"
2020-09-19 18:37:52 <davean> merijn: For a larger report, yes
2020-09-19 18:38:14 <lechner> dmwit: thanks for the link earlier. i read it twice, and it was very helpful!
2020-09-19 18:38:30 <davean> merijn: theres various potential scopes.
2020-09-19 18:38:33 → DavidEichmann joins (~david@43.240.198.146.dyn.plus.net)
2020-09-19 18:38:34 <merijn> Everyone says stuff "we should add existentials to the report!", but actually going through the work to specify how they should work is an annoyance no one wants :p
2020-09-19 18:38:56 <Uniaika> (would they even be useful??)
2020-09-19 18:39:10 <Uniaika> (no wait, scratch that, it's just ignorance talking)
2020-09-19 18:39:18 <merijn> What?
2020-09-19 18:39:23 <dolio> Can we get DeriveFunctor?
2020-09-19 18:39:28 <merijn> Existenials are plenty useful
2020-09-19 18:39:31 <davean> Can we get ScopedTypeVariables :-p
2020-09-19 18:39:31 → Thra11 joins (~Thra11@5.1.169.217.in-addr.arpa)
2020-09-19 18:39:36 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-19 18:39:39 <davean> I want to be able to write type signatures :-p
2020-09-19 18:39:44 <merijn> I'm not convinced about SCTV by default
2020-09-19 18:39:57 <merijn> Unless it includes the explicit forall to use
2020-09-19 18:39:58 <dolio> Does 2010 let you write quantified types?
2020-09-19 18:40:32 <ski> (having the explicit `forall' was a mistake, imho)
2020-09-19 18:40:37 <Uniaika> davean: existentially or universally? :P
2020-09-19 18:40:43 <Uniaika> ski: are you speaking of PureScript?
2020-09-19 18:40:47 <dolio> If not, seems like you could add it the way GHC does it.
2020-09-19 18:40:49 <davean> Uniaika: I don't think you're talking to me.
2020-09-19 18:40:52 <ski> no, `ScopedTypeVariables'
2020-09-19 18:40:55 <Uniaika> err, I meant dolio
2020-09-19 18:40:59 <Uniaika> ski: ok
2020-09-19 18:41:09 <Uniaika> davean: yeah sorry :)
2020-09-19 18:41:23 × MaoZeDong_ quits (~yuri@2a00:1370:8135:91d4:415b:9b05:36f8:565c) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-19 18:41:28 <tomsmeding> sm[m]: any new edits to pastes made from now on will be tracked like in this one: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Lo6fyJsD
2020-09-19 18:41:41 <monochrom> Ah, even Haskell 2010 itself is extremely sketchy on both type checking ("oh it's just folklore HM with folklore type classes") and dynamic semantics ("oh it's just folklore non-strict lambda calculus").
2020-09-19 18:42:04 <ski> Uniaika : imho, it's backwards. with `ScopedTypeVariables' enabled, the free variables in the signature ought to be in scope in the definition, unless they're explicitly quantified by `forall' :)
2020-09-19 18:42:12 <dolio> Uniaika: I'm not sure Haskell 2010 lets you write explicit 'foralls' I mean.
2020-09-19 18:42:15 × zacts quits (~zacts@dragora/developer/zacts) (Quit: leaving)
2020-09-19 18:42:19 <merijn> It doesn't
2020-09-19 18:42:24 <monochrom> There is no way (or no need? heh heh heh) you can specify ScopedTypeVariable at that rate.
2020-09-19 18:42:25 <davean> ski: I agree
2020-09-19 18:42:34 <Uniaika> I see :)
2020-09-19 18:43:21 <davean> monochrom: You just do it. if its compiled Haskell2020, its ScopedTypeVariable without forall. Set language Haskel2010 in your cabal file if you haven't updated your code, oh you already have to set that so do nothing.
2020-09-19 18:43:21 <tomsmeding> ski: yes please
2020-09-19 18:43:22 <dolio> ski: Are foralls required on top-level signatures?
2020-09-19 18:43:31 <ski> nope
2020-09-19 18:44:18 <monochrom> No, I mean specifying what ScopedTypedVariable means.
2020-09-19 18:44:39 <monochrom> IOW merijn's sense of "specify".
2020-09-19 18:44:52 <davean> monochrom: ooh, I mean you can specify it as well as Haskell's types are specified :)
2020-09-19 18:45:21 <dolio> Maybe they're already compatible with Haskell 2010. :P
2020-09-19 18:45:26 × Thra11 quits (~Thra11@5.1.169.217.in-addr.arpa) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-09-19 18:45:33 → wwwww joins (~wwwww@unaffiliated/wwwww)
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