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Logs: freenode/#haskell

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2020-09-22 16:27:42 × J_Arcane quits (sid119274@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-unhsxwafbyombroh) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-22 16:28:02 → LKoen joins (~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-09-22 16:28:05 × adamwespiser quits (~adam_wesp@209.6.42.110) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-22 16:28:20 → J_Arcane joins (sid119274@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbeshiltkuiqzozn)
2020-09-22 16:30:00 → rkvist joins (~user@138.197.72.132)
2020-09-22 16:30:18 <rkvist> Does irc browse https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/ have a channel?
2020-09-22 16:30:50 <tomsmeding> rkvist: it does not have a dedicated irc channel, no; is there a particular reason you're asking?
2020-09-22 16:31:06 → nineonine joins (~nineonine@50.216.62.2)
2020-09-22 16:31:06 <tomsmeding> (at least, not that I know of :D)
2020-09-22 16:33:29 <monochrom> Isn't that this channel? :)
2020-09-22 16:35:46 → Saten-san joins (~Saten-san@ip-83-134-202-119.dsl.scarlet.be)
2020-09-22 16:39:19 × jespada quits (~jespada@90.254.241.6) (Quit: Sleeping)
2020-09-22 16:39:51 <rkvist> lol I am sure it is not because I forgot to install postgres and thus it is not working.
2020-09-22 16:41:42 <monochrom> I see what you mean now.
2020-09-22 16:43:40 × sand_dull quits (~theuser@62.182.99.37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-22 16:44:33 × ukari quits (~ukari@unaffiliated/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-22 16:44:44 → geekosaur joins (42d52102@66.213.33.2)
2020-09-22 16:45:56 → sand_dull joins (~theuser@62.182.99.37)
2020-09-22 16:47:57 → oish joins (~charlie@228.25.169.217.in-addr.arpa)
2020-09-22 16:48:06 → shad0w_ joins (~shad0w_@160.202.36.59)
2020-09-22 16:48:51 × shad0w_ quits (~shad0w_@160.202.36.59) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-22 16:51:47 × xff0x quits (~fox@2001:1a81:5222:7400:a532:31e:75e4:cc8b) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-22 16:51:59 <tomsmeding> I'm afraid I don't fully see; perhaps a meaning of "channel" is used that I'm not getting? :)
2020-09-22 16:52:40 <monochrom> Rather, I think rkvist means a channel about the software used behind ircbrowse.
2020-09-22 16:53:26 <rkvist> Sorry didn't mean to cause existential issues, like normally when I go places.
2020-09-22 16:53:32 → xff0x joins (~fox@2001:1a81:5222:7400:a532:31e:75e4:cc8b)
2020-09-22 16:53:33 <tomsmeding> :p
2020-09-22 16:54:48 <monochrom> Are existing issues discovered, or are they created? <--- the ultimate meta-existential issue. >:)
2020-09-22 16:56:44 <hyperisco> I think "discovery" is the fundamental question
2020-09-22 16:57:00 × Lowl3v3l quits (~Lowl3v3l@dslb-090-186-188-115.090.186.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-22 16:57:48 <hyperisco> and I don't think discovering something creates it, so no! :P
2020-09-22 16:59:04 <geekosaur> I walked into the middle of something, and I'm still trying to figure out what. >.>
2020-09-22 16:59:35 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/haskell?id=14203&timestamp=1600792200#t1600792200
2020-09-22 17:00:07 <monochrom> It all began with my misinterpretation of a question. :)
2020-09-22 17:00:27 × ClaudiusMaximus quits (~claude@unaffiliated/claudiusmaximus) (Quit: ->)
2020-09-22 17:01:00 <monochrom> TLDR it ended with my great skill in using puns to tie a knot.
2020-09-22 17:01:13 → sagax joins (~sagax_nb@213.138.71.146)
2020-09-22 17:02:14 <hyperisco> discovery = novel subjective actualisation
2020-09-22 17:02:48 → chrisdotcode joins (~chrisdotc@unaffiliated/chrisdotcode)
2020-09-22 17:02:52 <monochrom> hyperisco, we all know that discovery and creation are disjoint.
2020-09-22 17:03:18 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@45.78.189.122) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:03:33 <hyperisco> I thought this was a hotly debated amongst philo laymen like myself whenever "invention" is discussed :P
2020-09-22 17:03:35 → howdoi joins (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wtjtqduklnimitip)
2020-09-22 17:03:39 <hyperisco> are inventions discovered or created
2020-09-22 17:03:51 <monochrom> But do you choose to frame your programming activity as "creating your code", or do you frame it as "discovering your code?"
2020-09-22 17:04:00 <int-e> neither, they're patented :-P
2020-09-22 17:04:07 <monochrom> haha you win
2020-09-22 17:04:13 → kritzefitz joins (~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2020-09-22 17:04:43 <monochrom> Because the set of all strings already exist as a mathematical set. Perhaps you discovered that you wanted one particular element to be your code.
2020-09-22 17:05:01 → dead10cc joins (63f22acf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.99.242.42.207)
2020-09-22 17:05:01 <hyperisco> shoo Plato!
2020-09-22 17:05:56 → palmer67 joins (47cc944a@c-71-204-148-74.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2020-09-22 17:06:02 <hyperisco> I could agree the set of all strings exist but I wouldn't agree that all strings exist
2020-09-22 17:06:05 × sand_dull quits (~theuser@62.182.99.37) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:06:10 → dhil joins (~dhil@11.29.39.217.dyn.plus.net)
2020-09-22 17:06:27 <monochrom> OTOH if you take the stance that you created, not discovered, your code, then whatever reason you use for that stance is very likely widely applicable and so the next question is what is there to discover.
2020-09-22 17:07:01 <hyperisco> well you say they are disjoint, I don't
2020-09-22 17:07:47 <monochrom> (The converse is also true. Whatever reason you use to take the stance that, for example, math is discovered, is likely widely applicable and so what is there to create.)
2020-09-22 17:08:07 × __Joker_ quits (~Joker@119.82.123.124) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:08:27 → __Joker joins (~Joker@106.206.41.150)
2020-09-22 17:08:47 → sand_dull joins (~theuser@62.182.99.37)
2020-09-22 17:09:28 <geekosaur> on the one hand, "God created the integers; all else is the work of man."
2020-09-22 17:09:31 × alp quits (~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:24bf:2628:a65:b9f2) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:09:46 → shatriff joins (~vitaliish@176.52.219.10)
2020-09-22 17:09:56 → ClaudiusMaximus joins (~claude@198.123.199.146.dyn.plus.net)
2020-09-22 17:09:57 <geekosaur> on the other, I can follow hyperisco and various sculptors in saying that something exists in the abstract and is revealed by someone
2020-09-22 17:10:06 <monochrom> ObHaskell: Discovery is reading eagerly-pre-evaluated values. Creation is forcing lazily-eval-on-demand values.
2020-09-22 17:10:46 <hyperisco> I have a hard time understanding the authorship part of creation
2020-09-22 17:11:25 <hyperisco> I'd rather say something more mundane like effects are created by causes
2020-09-22 17:11:36 <monochrom> Well yeah, authorship and "giving credits" is a social construct. :)
2020-09-22 17:11:42 <hyperisco> but you can't really get to saying a person is a cause
2020-09-22 17:12:10 <monochrom> Do you accept "humanity as a whole is the author"?
2020-09-22 17:12:44 <hyperisco> if authorship can be explained to me maybe
2020-09-22 17:13:08 × sand_dull quits (~theuser@62.182.99.37) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:13:08 × __Joker quits (~Joker@106.206.41.150) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:13:27 → __Joker joins (~Joker@119.82.123.124)
2020-09-22 17:13:48 <geekosaur> considering intellectual property law, I am not sure it can be explained
2020-09-22 17:14:48 <hyperisco> for discovery it seems okay to handwave "brain states" and fine
2020-09-22 17:15:20 × supercoven_ quits (~Supercove@dsl-hkibng32-54fb54-166.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:16:13 <hyperisco> but authorship seems murky because intuitively it is about originality
2020-09-22 17:16:30 <geekosaur> you can do much the same handwave for creation. after all, something exists beforehand, you've merely come up with a new way to organize it. with luck it's even a useful way
2020-09-22 17:17:07 <hyperisco> I could say I create my code, but I've also learned from other people, and I mimic their ideas, like Monad
2020-09-22 17:17:22 <hyperisco> so where have I authored and where haven't I?
2020-09-22 17:17:53 → alp joins (~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:79c5:27e3:c619:e1ff)
2020-09-22 17:18:12 → Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362)
2020-09-22 17:18:21 <hyperisco> if I read a bubble sort and I type it out myself verbatim, did I create that? maybe I created the copy of it, the copy is novel
2020-09-22 17:19:14 <hyperisco> which then confusingly is on a screen, in RAM chips, bits in the CPU caches, somewhere on my SSD, somewhere in the cloud backup
2020-09-22 17:19:50 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:19:51 <hyperisco> did I create all of those or was that a feat of the hardware?
2020-09-22 17:20:05 × kuribas quits (~user@ptr-25vy0i6w0fjwv5tj6q0.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2020-09-22 17:20:21 <hyperisco> maybe all I really did was author the performance of pressing keys
2020-09-22 17:20:25 × dead10cc quits (63f22acf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.99.242.42.207) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-22 17:20:31 <geekosaur> are you also a feat of the hardware?
2020-09-22 17:20:47 <hyperisco> maybe D:
2020-09-22 17:21:04 Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2020-09-22 17:21:17 <monochrom> Who knows, perhaps the exact timing and velocity of your pressing keys constitute a new symphony.
2020-09-22 17:21:41 <maerwald> is there any terminal layout library (e.g. printing tables) that deals correctly with escape chars and unicode?
2020-09-22 17:21:51 <hyperisco> a real question \o/
2020-09-22 17:22:21 × ransom quits (~c4264035@c-73-243-2-10.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-09-22 17:22:28 × brown121407 quits (~brown1214@brown.121407.xyz) (Changing host)
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