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2020-09-19 19:25:44 <iqubic> sm[m]: I'm planning on trying to use it with emacs and nix.
2020-09-19 19:25:50 <davean> monochrom: If people were being paid $500/hour to use slackware I'd be pretty confident in its continued existance.
2020-09-19 19:26:06 <sm[m]> iqubic: I'm not going to say that's ready, that's a whole nother ball game :)
2020-09-19 19:27:00 <wwwww> sm[m]: i didn't know that setting
2020-09-19 19:27:04 <monochrom> davean, there is something wrong with using only the job market as the only indicator, but I can't articulate why.
2020-09-19 19:27:08 × bahamas quits (~lucian@unaffiliated/bahamas) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-19 19:27:11 <iqubic> So, hls is only really ready for use with VS Code, and not really ready for use wiemacs?
2020-09-19 19:27:13 <merijn> Ready is a matter of how much pain you're willing to put up with :p
2020-09-19 19:27:33 <merijn> iqubic: I mean ghcide (which hls is built on) works fine for me in vim
2020-09-19 19:27:35 → MaoZeDong_ joins (~yuri@2a00:1370:8135:91d4:956f:2ce4:9ce3:de8c)
2020-09-19 19:28:00 <iqubic> I don't want to put up with much pain. I want a tiny little bit of pain only.
2020-09-19 19:28:00 <merijn> iqubic: Is it ready in the sense of "I wanna press a single button with 100% success rate of everything working"? Probably not.
2020-09-19 19:28:13 <davean> monochrom: Its a touch different than that, people getting paid $500/hour to use a thing tend to make sure said thing keeps existing.
2020-09-19 19:28:13 <rednaZ[m]> iqubic: If you want to be on the safe side, use `haskell-mode` and `eglot` with ghcide (https://github.com/haskell/ghcide#eglot)
2020-09-19 19:28:33 → Saten-san joins (~Saten-san@ip-81-11-153-236.dsl.scarlet.be)
2020-09-19 19:28:36 <iqubic> I think I'll just stick with Dante. It seems to work well enough for me.
2020-09-19 19:29:05 <merijn> davean: If I got paid 500/hour to do C I'd still wipe it off the planet if I could ;)
2020-09-19 19:29:26 geekosaur doesn't think that worked for Solaris
2020-09-19 19:29:45 <merijn> s/Solaris/Illumos :p
2020-09-19 19:29:52 <wwwww> sm[m]: for a moment i tought i was counting wrong but no
2020-09-19 19:29:59 <davean> geekosaur: you only wish Solaris was gone.
2020-09-19 19:30:09 <sm[m]> wwwww: yes, the H and K keys. Though for whatever reason, on mac it seems to alway show the threads, unlike on linux
2020-09-19 19:30:17 <merijn> Solaris is better than Linux in tons of ways >.>
2020-09-19 19:30:41 <davean> merijn: All POSIX systems are crap.
2020-09-19 19:31:11 <davean> But at least Solaris didn't come last and then make mistakes that every predicesor made sure to avoid.
2020-09-19 19:31:12 <merijn> Sure
2020-09-19 19:31:18 <merijn> But some are more crap than others :p
2020-09-19 19:31:28 <davean> *cough*epoll*cough*
2020-09-19 19:31:31 <merijn> davean: Ah, I see you too hate epoll
2020-09-19 19:31:33 <merijn> Hah
2020-09-19 19:31:34 <sm[m]> wwwww: if you want to get to the bottom of it, you should probably create a minimal reproducible example, and show screenshots/pastes of your build/run commands and the results on both platforms as well
2020-09-19 19:31:44 <merijn> davean: God, epoll is such an embarassment
2020-09-19 19:32:03 <merijn> davean: Imagine if linux had just implemented kqueue and we could've used that portably acorss linux, macOS, and BSD :(
2020-09-19 19:32:30 <davean> merijn: oh, oh, you want to only put epoll into the "braindead things linux did that litterly no one else was stupid to do, and was conciously aware would be a bad idea"?
2020-09-19 19:32:37 <davean> merijn: because I have a whole list ...
2020-09-19 19:33:07 <merijn> davean: Naah, but it's the one that springs to mind most easily :)
2020-09-19 19:33:23 <wwwww> sm[m]: probably thats how i will endup but i don't really care about osx, it's nothing but very advanced dvd player
2020-09-19 19:33:27 <monochrom> Sorry, why is epoll a bad idea?
2020-09-19 19:33:29 <MarcelineVQ> What is the correct solution to the problem epoll tries to solve?
2020-09-19 19:33:37 <davean> (I really don't know how Linux devs manage to make so many actively bad decisions that why and how they're bad are so well established when they copy other people's work)
2020-09-19 19:33:45 <davean> MarcelineVQ: because it can never be used corretly.
2020-09-19 19:33:51 <davean> er, monochrom
2020-09-19 19:33:54 <sm[m]> iqubic: what merijn said. Recently I found researching & debugging the emacs packages & setup at the same time as hls to be just too much. The VS Code setup is waay more polished and easier, removing lots of failure modes.
2020-09-19 19:34:02 <merijn> monochrom, MarcelineVQ: https://idea.popcount.org/2017-02-20-epoll-is-fundamentally-broken-12/
2020-09-19 19:34:12 <merijn> davean: Well, it can now
2020-09-19 19:34:22 <merijn> If you know about the pitfall and use the right magic flag combination!
2020-09-19 19:34:30 <iqubic> I see. I'm going to keep using Dante for the time being.
2020-09-19 19:34:33 <davean> merijn: uh ... last I knew there were a few issues still.
2020-09-19 19:34:58 <merijn> Oh, possibly, but the the oneshot/exclusive flags fix the most glaring problems
2020-09-19 19:35:27 <davean> Yah but thats hardly the extent of it
2020-09-19 19:37:35 <merijn> monochrom: The damning thing is that Solaris ran into this issue, BSD then designed kqueue to not have the same problems, Windows' IO Completion Ports also work correctly and then after there had been 2 designs that correctly handle all the issues linux decides to, instead of adopting kqueue or the IOCP design, design their own system call that is gratuitously incompatible with kqueue *and* has the issues
2020-09-19 19:37:41 <merijn> that kqueue and IOCP were designed to not have
2020-09-19 19:39:01 <davean> Can we mention inotify here?
2020-09-19 19:39:14 <davean> Because thats also fundimentally broken in a way you can never use it correctly.
2020-09-19 19:39:19 <geekosaur> must we?
2020-09-19 19:39:25 <davean> in a way everyone else also got right before it came into existance.
2020-09-19 19:39:52 <davean> Fun fact: I have haskell packages that pass on all systems except linux because they detect the bugs in Linux.
2020-09-19 19:39:59 <davean> (their test cases)
2020-09-19 19:40:10 × eric quits (~eric@2804:431:c7d4:402a:747d:7a4a:20fc:1f27) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-19 19:41:37 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-19 19:41:45 × Saten-san quits (~Saten-san@ip-81-11-153-236.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-19 19:42:10 <sm[m]> I'm learning a lot of bad things in #haskell today.. is there no hope for linux to get fixed, then ?
2020-09-19 19:42:17 → eric joins (~eric@2804:431:c7d4:402a:4dc9:97ef:220b:73aa)
2020-09-19 19:42:17 <davean> sm[m]: no
2020-09-19 19:42:20 <merijn> Not really
2020-09-19 19:42:30 <merijn> It'd break kernel API which is deathly sin according to Linus
2020-09-19 19:42:41 <davean> merijn: well they could add kqueue
2020-09-19 19:42:47 <davean> and kqueue covers inotify
2020-09-19 19:42:49 <davean> unlike epoll
2020-09-19 19:42:59 <merijn> sm[m]: You're simply learning that, despite the internet memes about Linux' "superior engineering" it is a rather shoddily engineered OS, tbh
2020-09-19 19:43:26 <davean> merijn: Yah, its the lowest code quality of any POSIX I know of.
2020-09-19 19:43:45 <davean> Its like they let just anyone submit code.
2020-09-19 19:44:00 <MarcelineVQ> time for plan9 to come to dominance
2020-09-19 19:44:10 <cohn> I prefer FreeBSD personally, but Linux gets the job done when I need it to.
2020-09-19 19:44:13 <davean> POSIX is fundimentally flawed but Linux goes out of its way to be worse
2020-09-19 19:44:36 <merijn> anyway, we drifted slightly offtopic :p
2020-09-19 19:44:37 <davean> cohn: yah, I have a few things on FreeBSD for the reason of Linux's issues and it just working better :)
2020-09-19 19:44:48 <cohn> davean: woot!
2020-09-19 19:44:58 × coot quits (~coot@37.30.55.202.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
2020-09-19 19:45:25 × ryansmccoy quits (~ryansmcco@193.37.254.27) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-19 19:45:26 <cohn> yea, if I could get Docker working reliably on FreeBSD, I'd have zero use for Linux
2020-09-19 19:45:32 <sm[m]> surely this toy linux thing will never go anywhere
2020-09-19 19:45:52 → ryansmccoy joins (~ryansmcco@156.96.151.132)
2020-09-19 19:46:57 <sm[m]> also can I just say it's refreshing to see linux bashed in comparison to windows for once
2020-09-19 19:47:13 <davean> sm[m]: hey, windows is pretty bad too.
2020-09-19 19:47:39 <merijn> Windows has better engineering than Linux, handsdown
2020-09-19 19:47:53 <davean> merijn: yes, but by someone who hates Window's users
2020-09-19 19:47:54 <merijn> Doesn't mean they don't make bad decisions, but overall better
2020-09-19 19:48:15 <merijn> Anyway, maybe a discussion for -offtopic :p
2020-09-19 19:48:18 <geekosaur> but windows went through a significant clean-up between 7 and 8; linux could stand to do the same,but never will (or would get worse as a result)
2020-09-19 19:48:33 → Thra11 joins (~Thra11@5.1.169.217.in-addr.arpa)
2020-09-19 19:48:45 × p-core quits (~Thunderbi@koleje-wifi-0046.koleje.cuni.cz) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-09-19 19:49:05 → p-core joins (~Thunderbi@koleje-wifi-0046.koleje.cuni.cz)
2020-09-19 19:51:30 <maerwald> yes, lets switch all to windows... and then lets talk again
2020-09-19 19:51:58 <maerwald> (some thing are only true when you think about it, not when you do it)
2020-09-19 19:52:19 <davean> maerwald: no, I'd prefer to be abused via negligence than malice, thanks.
2020-09-19 19:52:23 → zacts joins (~zacts@dragora/developer/zacts)
2020-09-19 19:52:41 <davean> Microsoft is compitent enough its hard to avoid their abuse.
2020-09-19 19:54:29 × geekosaur quits (42d52102@66.213.33.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-19 19:56:04 <energizer> in pattern matching, if i forget to handle a possible case, it wont compile, right?
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