Logs: freenode/#haskell
| 2021-05-12 01:18:01 | <Axman6> | That one, fairly difficult to get right, way to do things, yes |
| 2021-05-12 01:18:58 | → | berberman_ joins (~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) |
| 2021-05-12 01:19:52 | × | berberman quits (~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:20:00 | → | trepanger_ joins (~z@ics141-225.icsincorporated.com) |
| 2021-05-12 01:20:22 | → | hyiltiz joins (~quassel@31.220.5.250) |
| 2021-05-12 01:20:23 | × | hyiltiz quits (~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Changing host) |
| 2021-05-12 01:20:23 | → | hyiltiz joins (~quassel@unaffiliated/hyiltiz) |
| 2021-05-12 01:20:24 | <Axman6> | the last project I worked on at one of my previous jobs was to build a system for tracing movements through supply chains - something like DAML with Canton would have made that project nearly trivial to implement, and for each party to build their own apps on, and to allow disclosure to the relevant authorities in a fairly trivial way |
| 2021-05-12 01:20:31 | × | atraii quits (~atraii@2601:681:8700:c471:182c:49ac:c430:1f21) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:21:20 | ← | refusenick parts (~user@2601:644:8502:d700::94c9) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)") |
| 2021-05-12 01:22:00 | → | Alleria joins (~textual@2603-7000-3040-0000-010d-5dbc-e6e6-cd09.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2021-05-12 01:22:24 | Alleria | is now known as Guest234 |
| 2021-05-12 01:22:45 | × | jpds quits (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:23:04 | <Axman6> | what a redundant sentense, I shouldn't do work and write on IRC at the same time |
| 2021-05-12 01:23:10 | → | rajivr joins (uid269651@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hokcqwgivdarxuri) |
| 2021-05-12 01:24:57 | → | jpds joins (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:24:57 | <Cale> | I can definitely see the value in making it easier to write what are more or less centralised databases with well-structured APIs that are easy to use and interconnect. I just don't see what adding a peer-to-peer distributed network into the mix (on top of TCP/IP) really does to help anything. |
| 2021-05-12 01:25:43 | × | jpds quits (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-12 01:26:04 | → | jpds joins (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:26:22 | <Cale> | As well as having the default policy for replication be that everyone replicates everything all the time. |
| 2021-05-12 01:26:26 | <Axman6> | The only pieces that need to be distributed are the shared pieces of information, which should be consistently viewed by all involved parties, and that's what a system like that gives you. Who wons the data that a shipment is being sent from A to bB? Who owns the fact that B has received it? |
| 2021-05-12 01:26:35 | × | Guest36391 quits (~iomonad@unaffiliated/iomonad) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:27:08 | <Axman6> | that's not the default policy in the systems I'm talking about. This is a long way from the one true blockchain model of most current cryptocurrencies |
| 2021-05-12 01:27:44 | <Axman6> | ehat is shared is what is visible to those parties, nothing else needs to be |
| 2021-05-12 01:28:10 | × | killsushi quits (~killsushi@2607:fea8:3d40:767:a826:23b7:521c:2d11) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-05-12 01:28:45 | → | jgt_ joins (~jgt@92-247-237-116.spectrumnet.bg) |
| 2021-05-12 01:28:51 | <Axman6> | Like, don't get me wrong, I had exactly the same beliefs before working with DAML, I though most of the ideas in crypto currencies were terrible, and many of them made scaling nearly impossible. but that model doesn't have to be _the_ model |
| 2021-05-12 01:28:54 | → | killsushi joins (~killsushi@2607:fea8:3d40:767:a826:23b7:521c:2d11) |
| 2021-05-12 01:28:58 | × | sheepduck quits (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-12 01:29:11 | <Cale> | In my mind, whatever real-world organisation is responsible for policing the relationship between the parties A and B ought to own that data. Someone has to be tasked with ensuring the contents of the database are correct, after all. |
| 2021-05-12 01:29:50 | → | sheepduck joins (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) |
| 2021-05-12 01:29:55 | <Cale> | If that's just party B because we're lazy, and that situation is inadequate, no blockchain is going to really solve that problem. |
| 2021-05-12 01:30:04 | × | sheepduck quits (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) (Max SendQ exceeded) |
| 2021-05-12 01:30:34 | → | sheepduck joins (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) |
| 2021-05-12 01:32:13 | × | Iceland_jack quits (~user@95.147.45.92) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-12 01:32:53 | × | chris__ quits (~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-12 01:33:08 | × | xkapastel quits (uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jebgsafpndujiwtn) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2021-05-12 01:33:21 | × | hyiltiz quits (~quassel@unaffiliated/hyiltiz) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:33:30 | × | jgt_ quits (~jgt@92-247-237-116.spectrumnet.bg) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:34:00 | → | Guest36391 joins (~iomonad@unaffiliated/iomonad) |
| 2021-05-12 01:36:16 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:06 | <Axman6> | What if it's the thirs party, say the government, which publishes the contracts which represent the relationship between those parties, and those contracts enforce visibility of that organisation when those actions are undertaken? |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:26 | → | hyiltiz joins (~quassel@31.220.5.250) |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:26 | × | hyiltiz quits (~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Changing host) |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:26 | → | hyiltiz joins (~quassel@unaffiliated/hyiltiz) |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:41 | → | nineonine joins (~nineonine@50.216.62.2) |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:43 | × | olligobber quits (olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:55 | <Cale> | Yeah, that's basically what we've got. People sign contracts, governments oversee the contracts. Ultimately, a judge can say whether the contract was valid or not. |
| 2021-05-12 01:38:57 | → | malumore__ joins (~malumore@151.62.125.25) |
| 2021-05-12 01:39:40 | <Axman6> | like, this is tuff that a coupld of dozen lines of code in DAML, and I'm sure other languages too (though DAMLs model of visivility is quite unique as far as I can tell) |
| 2021-05-12 01:40:47 | × | cr3 quits (~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2021-05-12 01:40:49 | <Cale> | I'd probably support the government keeping some sort of database of official contracts, but I do find the automated reasoning about them to be troubling. I see it as a good thing that a judge is allowed to say "no, that's actually slavery, you're not allowed to form that contract" and render it void, despite the potential for abuse. |
| 2021-05-12 01:41:13 | × | sheepduck quits (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-12 01:41:37 | → | carif joins (~mcarifio@cpe-67-246-227-118.rochester.res.rr.com) |
| 2021-05-12 01:41:40 | <Cale> | When it's a program running uncontrollably on a global network of everyone's computers, that might not be possible. |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:12 | × | malumore_ quits (~malumore@151.62.117.210) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:33 | × | hyiltiz quits (~quassel@unaffiliated/hyiltiz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:40 | <Axman6> | why would it be uncontrolable? |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:42 | × | geekosaur quits (930099da@rrcs-147-0-153-218.central.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:59 | → | hyiltiz joins (~quassel@31.220.5.250) |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:59 | × | hyiltiz quits (~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Changing host) |
| 2021-05-12 01:42:59 | → | hyiltiz joins (~quassel@unaffiliated/hyiltiz) |
| 2021-05-12 01:43:43 | <Cale> | Well, it depends on how you set up the network, but usually these networks are designed to be decentralised, and don't have entities with authority to just change or delete things at will. |
| 2021-05-12 01:43:56 | → | sheepduck joins (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) |
| 2021-05-12 01:44:29 | × | xcmw quits (~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-05-12 01:44:37 | <Cale> | I think the people who enforce that the contents of the database agree with the real-world situation and are legal and valid should have such authority over the contents of the database, it is a tool primarily for their sake. |
| 2021-05-12 01:45:27 | <Cale> | After all, they could always choose to act as though the contents of the database are different from what the computers say. |
| 2021-05-12 01:46:01 | → | xcmw joins (~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com) |
| 2021-05-12 01:46:21 | <Cale> | But if you have a bunch of smart contracts running out of control that are in disagreement with what is actually going to be enforced, that'll be a mess quickly. |
| 2021-05-12 01:46:38 | <Axman6> | of course, legislation is what provides the tool for enforcing the connection between the real world and documents about it. this has been the same for millenia |
| 2021-05-12 01:47:56 | × | sheepduck quits (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-05-12 01:48:46 | → | nbloomf joins (~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:692a:95b:a9cd:2f9) |
| 2021-05-12 01:48:57 | <Cale> | Now, it might be a good idea to have some sort of standardised APIs for governments to be able to manage digital records of financial contracts that they are going to legally enforce. I just again see making that database distributed as creating more technical difficulties than it solves. |
| 2021-05-12 01:49:20 | × | sdrodge quits (~sdrodge@unaffiliated/sdrodge) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:49:53 | × | hyiltiz quits (~quassel@unaffiliated/hyiltiz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-05-12 01:50:06 | <Cale> | If you're the type to say "well, I don't trust the government", that's just too bad, because they have the guns, so nobody was asking. |
| 2021-05-12 01:51:02 | <m_shiraeeshi> | I don't know nothing about cryptocurrencies, let me ask |
| 2021-05-12 01:51:26 | <m_shiraeeshi> | Cale: "As well as having the default policy for replication be that everyone replicates everything all the time." |
| 2021-05-12 01:51:32 | <m_shiraeeshi> | what do you mean? |
| 2021-05-12 01:51:52 | → | sheepduck joins (~sheepduck@2607:fea8:2a62:9600::9ba6) |
| 2021-05-12 01:51:57 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: Generally those who are participating in blockchains store a copy of the entire chain of blocks on their machine |
| 2021-05-12 01:51:59 | → | apache8080 joins (~rishi@wsip-70-168-153-252.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 2021-05-12 01:52:56 | <Axman6> | but that's absolutely not necessary |
| 2021-05-12 01:53:08 | <Cale> | Yeah, it's just uncommon to avoid it. |
| 2021-05-12 01:53:29 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so, when performing a transaction, let's say selling something, you send a message "I sold this thing", and then what happens? |
| 2021-05-12 01:53:37 | <Axman6> | well, Cardano is attempting to, as is Canton |
| 2021-05-12 01:53:39 | → | olligobber joins (olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber) |
| 2021-05-12 01:53:49 | <m_shiraeeshi> | everybody should acknowledge your transaction? or majority? |
| 2021-05-12 01:53:51 | <shanemikel> | The main issue I see with blockchains is that anyone can stick any data in it and it's basically impossible to redact without a fork (think of certain rather unsavory kinds of explicit images). |
| 2021-05-12 01:54:33 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: Well, in proof of work systems, some miner may choose to pick up your transaction and include it in the next block that they construct, when they solve the puzzle. |
| 2021-05-12 01:55:16 | → | tromp joins (~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) |
| 2021-05-12 01:55:23 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: and then that new block gets shared with all the nodes, and so long as it's part of the longest/largest-amount-of-work chain, your transaction happened. |
| 2021-05-12 01:55:24 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so what miners do is they replicate and acknowledge transactions? |
| 2021-05-12 01:55:30 | <Cale> | yeah |
| 2021-05-12 01:55:47 | → | geowiesnot joins (~user@87-89-181-157.abo.bbox.fr) |
| 2021-05-12 01:56:20 | <Axman6> | shanemikel: again, that's not a necessary feature of blockchains, that is a feature of some current blockchains. the DAML view is that only whose parties who are _allowed_ to see any data can, not everyone - they may see that data exists, but not what it is |
| 2021-05-12 01:56:35 | <shanemikel> | That's a cool feature if you want to do something like stick an encrypted signed revision of your research paper in the chain before collaborating with some unscrupulous but brilliant guy (just in case he tries to claim credit). Not so cool if somebody sticks your social security # or deed to your house in it. |
| 2021-05-12 01:56:35 | <m_shiraeeshi> | Cale: "and so long as it's part of the longest/largest-amount-of-work chain" |
| 2021-05-12 01:56:40 | <Cale> | Axman6: That's definitely an improvement, to be sure |
| 2021-05-12 01:56:52 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so there's possibility of conflicts and divergencies? |
All times are in UTC.