Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2026-03-09 09:18:48 | <merijn> | castan: "instance Monoid b => Monoid (a -> b) where mappend f g = \x -> mappend (f x) (g x)" |
| 2026-03-09 09:19:36 | <merijn> | castan: But that instance applies recursively (i.e. since "a -> b" is a Monoid when 'b' is, then "c -> a -> b" (which is just "c -> (a -> b)" is also a monoid) |
| 2026-03-09 09:20:06 | <merijn> | :t comparing fst |
| 2026-03-09 09:20:07 | <lambdabot> | Ord a => (a, b) -> (a, b) -> Ordering |
| 2026-03-09 09:20:11 | <merijn> | :t comparing snd |
| 2026-03-09 09:20:12 | <lambdabot> | Ord a1 => (a2, a1) -> (a2, a1) -> Ordering |
| 2026-03-09 09:21:55 | <merijn> | Ordering is just "data Ordering = LT | EQ | GT" with "mappend LT _ = LT; mappend GT _ = GT; mappend EQ x = x" (i.e. it gives you the left-most non-equal value) |
| 2026-03-09 09:22:57 | <merijn> | So "comparing snd <> comparing fst" passes the same 2 tuples to both functions and mappend results, which simply returns the result of "comparing snd" **unless** that returns EQ, then it falls back to the result of "comparing fst" |
| 2026-03-09 09:23:30 | <castan> | oh and then with <> you get a lexicographic order on the pairs |
| 2026-03-09 09:23:56 | <merijn> | castan: lexicographic order on the whatever functions you pass to it |
| 2026-03-09 09:24:04 | <merijn> | but yes |
| 2026-03-09 09:24:35 | <castan> | this is really cool, thank you for the info |
| 2026-03-09 09:24:53 | <merijn> | It's stupid powerful for trivially writing really complicated sorts |
| 2026-03-09 09:25:56 | <merijn> | It also works well for stuff like aggregating data, since you just need a monoid on the final result and then you can compose any number of functions computing stuff that take the same arguments into bigger aggregations |
| 2026-03-09 09:26:42 | <merijn> | castan: It's even neater since you can my personal favourite "mwhen :: Monoid b => Boolean -> b" to selectively disable parts of aggregation/sorting |
| 2026-03-09 09:27:55 | × | castan quits (~castan@2a02:2f0f:8210:d800:1625:20a6:66c:b041) (Quit: castan) |
| 2026-03-09 09:29:23 | <merijn> | For a non-trivial real world example of the power of just stacking a bunch of monoids, see: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/Cabal/src/Distribution/Simple/Program/GHC.hs#L67-L144 |
| 2026-03-09 09:30:06 | <merijn> | Good to see that that code hasn't been maintained/updated for, like, 10 GHC releases now >.> |
| 2026-03-09 09:34:53 | × | prdak quits (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 09:37:49 | <[exa]> | is there a "strict" generic monoidal `fold` ? |
| 2026-03-09 09:38:11 | <[exa]> | the docs recommend going for `foldMap' id` but that's not cute |
| 2026-03-09 09:38:17 | <[exa]> | y no fold' |
| 2026-03-09 09:38:55 | <[exa]> | merijn: btw the slow hackage situation has been dragging for over a week now I'd say. can we somehow throw servers at it? |
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| 2026-03-09 09:40:28 | <kuribas> | Is a lot of haskell code now also "vibecoded"? |
| 2026-03-09 09:40:33 | <kuribas> | I noticed this PR: https://github.com/winterland1989/mysql-haskell/pull/72 |
| 2026-03-09 09:40:56 | <kuribas> | "Generated with Claude Code" |
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| 2026-03-09 09:43:39 | <[exa]> | kuribas: apparently even some haskell folks love to just pour code on stuff |
| 2026-03-09 09:44:14 | <kuribas> | "catch (void (waitCommandReply tlsIs')) ((\ _ -> return ()) :: SomeException -> IO ())" |
| 2026-03-09 09:45:01 | <[exa]> | it's for mysql so aesthetics arguments don't apply |
| 2026-03-09 09:45:22 | <kuribas> | right :) |
| 2026-03-09 09:45:38 | <kuribas> | Also "if isOK q then return () else decodeFromPacket q >>= throwIO . ERRException" |
| 2026-03-09 09:45:47 | <kuribas> | Instead "unless (isOk q) $ ..." |
| 2026-03-09 09:46:02 | <[exa]> | c'mon it's python encoded in haskell, newbie-friendly! |
| 2026-03-09 09:46:07 | <mesaoptimizer> | lol |
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| 2026-03-09 09:47:04 | <[exa]> | I found that particular issue to be an interesting thing to write into homework assignments |
| 2026-03-09 09:48:15 | <[exa]> | if you explicitly say "do not use Bool", humans will switch to some correct-by-construction workflow (like having Maybe query or so); poor claude will encode booleans in strings and integers |
| 2026-03-09 09:51:04 | <mesaoptimizer> | I wonder if there are languages that are extremely resistant to LLM codegen, such that any code written is very likely human-written |
| 2026-03-09 09:51:52 | <kuribas> | idris? |
| 2026-03-09 09:53:02 | <mesaoptimizer> | possibly, yeah. I do notice that it is incredibly difficult for LLMs to write dependent type theoretic code, but my experiments were only with Agda (when attempting to learn it) |
| 2026-03-09 09:53:38 | <mesaoptimizer> | one could also make syntax-semantics combinations that are extremely alien to the LLM |
| 2026-03-09 09:54:19 | <mesaoptimizer> | perhaps if you model the syntax-semantics space, you can essentially sample from regions that are adverserially optimized to be incoherent and counter-intuitive to the model |
| 2026-03-09 09:54:59 | <mesaoptimizer> | (question is whether they will stay intuitive enough for programmers) |
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| 2026-03-09 10:29:07 | <merijn> | [exa]: tbh, chatgpt seems to do much better with strongly typed code than other stuff imo |
| 2026-03-09 10:32:10 | <newmind> | merijn: i feel like it is quite a bit worse at generation, it one-shots less reliably, and often falls back to imperative patterns which don't quite fit wit haskell... but at least most of the time it then doesn't compile and it can fix that, rather than relying just on unit tests or the user catching it |
| 2026-03-09 10:33:45 | <merijn> | newmind: I've mostly been using it with Scala, so not entirely sure how it does for HAskell |
| 2026-03-09 10:34:03 | <merijn> | mesaoptimizer: I mean, that's just reinventing Epigram but unprincipled :p\ |
| 2026-03-09 10:35:18 | <newmind> | at least the claude models are.. usable? they still get a lot of it wrong, and often get stuck in trivial sections, and the code they produce is... quite bad... but it compiles, and once it's working, refactoring it in a strongly typed language is so much more reliable than without |
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| 2026-03-09 11:18:47 | <int-e> | "but it compiles" -- yeah because they throw the code at the compiler until it does |
| 2026-03-09 11:19:57 | <newmind> | int-e: more or less, yes :) still more successful than just inventing code that then just crashes at runtime |
| 2026-03-09 11:20:02 | <mauke> | I strongly prefer code to be typed, not generated |
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| 2026-03-09 11:20:28 | <int-e> | mauke: with Haskell you can have both! |
| 2026-03-09 11:20:30 | int-e | runs |
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| 2026-03-09 12:25:46 | <ski> | EvanR : yea, the point of that respone was to provide perhaps a more mathematical/logical aspect to the FD semantics. but yes, neither of the mentioned two effects have anything to do with actually selecting an instance, but rather to constrain the usage (merging used instances (demanded constraints)) and definition (disallowing instances violating the FD) of instances |
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