Logs: liberachat/#haskell
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| 2026-03-11 13:47:34 | <Guest34> | Make me a haskell script to talk with GPT-4 |
| 2026-03-11 13:52:36 | <probie> | Guest34: What features do you want? |
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| 2026-03-11 14:58:20 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like a prompt you can give to GPT-4 :p |
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| 2026-03-11 15:17:51 | <dminuoso> | mesaoptimizer: Well, in reality it only has operational semantics as defined by whatever GHC does. |
| 2026-03-11 15:18:52 | <dminuoso> | The Haskell reports did some very vague attempts of denotational semantics, but in reality that term defines mathematical rigor - something nobody has ever done. |
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| 2026-03-11 15:26:10 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: what do you mean with "defines mathematical rigor"? |
| 2026-03-11 15:26:18 | <dminuoso> | Some researchers have published papers on this subject, but they were all to just subsets of GHC haskell. A related problem would be defining what Haskell even is in 2026 - what extensions should be included in a full denotational semantic of Haskell. |
| 2026-03-11 15:27:02 | <tomsmeding> | I suspect that all that people actually care about is a semantics of Haskell98 without the FFI |
| 2026-03-11 15:27:40 | <tomsmeding> | the rest is going to be either syntactic sugar or complex, ad-hoc stuff that doesn't enlighten anyone about anything |
| 2026-03-11 15:28:20 | <dminuoso> | Dunno, I can think of a few extensions that have meaning like GADTs |
| 2026-03-11 15:28:49 | <tomsmeding> | hm, fair point |
| 2026-03-11 15:29:29 | <tomsmeding> | in operational semantics you can exclude GADTs because you don't need types at runtime, but in denotational semantics the point is to retain types |
| 2026-03-11 15:30:15 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: What about things like all the type wizardry (TypeInType, TyFams, etc)? |
| 2026-03-11 15:31:00 | <tomsmeding> | ... I guess that types are actually relevant, even in operational semantics, depending on how you model type class resolution |
| 2026-03-11 15:31:30 | <tomsmeding> | yes you're right, for denotational semantics all that's important |
| 2026-03-11 15:31:45 | <tomsmeding> | I was somehow only thinking of LambdaCase etc., which are not |
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| 2026-03-11 15:32:52 | <dminuoso> | I think a more accurate phrasing would be "It is possible to attach denotational semantics to a subset of Haskell", rather than saying that we *have* them (which might suggest that the language was signed ontop of it) |
| 2026-03-11 15:33:14 | <tomsmeding> | isn't it possible to attach denotational semantics to anything? |
| 2026-03-11 15:33:20 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps "useful denotational semantics" |
| 2026-03-11 15:33:41 | <tomsmeding> | like, one that actually models interesting structure of the language |
| 2026-03-11 15:34:01 | <tomsmeding> | in terms of "relatively" simple categorical constructrs |
| 2026-03-11 15:35:39 | <tomsmeding> | s/trs$/ts/ |
| 2026-03-11 15:35:42 | <dminuoso> | It seems rather like a useful vehicle to do some research, rather than defining a language. |
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| 2026-03-11 15:36:29 | <tomsmeding> | AFAIK denotational semantics also tends not to say anything about operational concerns such as order of evaluation |
| 2026-03-11 15:36:39 | <dminuoso> | Well, that depends on you I think. |
| 2026-03-11 15:36:52 | <dminuoso> | Nothing stops you from imposing an order of some kind to your denotation. |
| 2026-03-11 15:36:52 | <tomsmeding> | while in a language specification, you definitely want to know it if the language deviates from call-by-value |
| 2026-03-11 15:36:56 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2026-03-11 15:37:46 | <tomsmeding> | but in that case, "has haskell a denotational semantics" should just be answered with "for what purpose" |
| 2026-03-11 15:38:13 | <tomsmeding> | there being multiple levels of representation accuracy, and probably also multiple distinct designs at the same level |
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| 2026-03-11 16:40:46 | <tomsmeding> | can the guy in Bulgaria (?) with IP 195.178.110.33 stop spamming ircbrowse |
| 2026-03-11 16:42:31 | <tomsmeding> | ircbrowse is not a fast server and you're DOSing the service for others; when you crawl a site, be courteous and put delays between your requests |
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| 2026-03-11 16:56:27 | <EvanR> | see if you can mail him a zipdrive with the whole log on it |
| 2026-03-11 16:58:58 | <tomsmeding> | mail to what address? I only have an IP :p |
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| 2026-03-11 17:10:55 | <gentauro> | `LambdaCase` are nice when you work with Functors, as in `( \case …) <$> …` |
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| 2026-03-11 17:15:06 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: you might try `_ <&> \case _` too |
| 2026-03-11 17:17:11 | <haskellbridge> | <ijouw> I quite like that style. |
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