Logs: liberachat/#xmonad
| 2021-06-23 05:56:32 | → | backleet joins (~backleet@user/backleet) |
| 2021-06-23 06:31:51 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: Alright I fell asleep yesterday. Thank you for your guidance, it was indeed the missing _NET_WT_STATE capability. Doing this made freerdp work.. somewhat. |
| 2021-06-23 06:31:58 | <dminuoso> | Only to error randomly on other X interactions |
| 2021-06-23 06:32:16 | <Solid> | uff |
| 2021-06-23 06:32:52 | <dminuoso> | Xmonad and nix have one thing in common: They highlight poorly written non-portable software that blindly assume "things to be just some way" |
| 2021-06-23 06:36:15 | <Solid> | ...and then they ask people to do things in _their_ non-portable way :P |
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| 2021-06-23 06:37:01 | <dminuoso> | Dunno, with the software that I write and interact with, writing nix derivations was mostly completely effort less and 0-work |
| 2021-06-23 06:37:41 | <dminuoso> | For my software its as simple as (callCabal2Nix "freyja-server" ./freyja-server {}) and my package magically builds with nix as well as with cabal.. |
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| 2021-06-23 06:38:24 | <Solid> | I was reminded of nix's resistance to provide a proper /bin/bash, which breaks lots of scripts (I guess bash is not portable to begin with, but still) |
| 2021-06-23 06:38:56 | <dminuoso> | Yeah, the state with scripts is a bit sorrow |
| 2021-06-23 06:39:08 | <dminuoso> | But I cant say too much about it because I haven't actually dived in |
| 2021-06-23 06:39:39 | <dminuoso> | /usr/bin/env bash |
| 2021-06-23 06:39:43 | <dminuoso> | This works mostly though |
| 2021-06-23 06:39:56 | <Solid> | yeah, but the problem with that is that the path of env is not specified by POSIX |
| 2021-06-23 06:40:04 | <Solid> | so this is really trading one non-portable solution for another |
| 2021-06-23 06:40:13 | <dminuoso> | To be fair, what nix really does is actually POSIX compliant |
| 2021-06-23 06:40:41 | <dminuoso> | Which says something along the lines of that "on installation you should set program paths to be suitable for your system" |
| 2021-06-23 06:40:57 | <dminuoso> | The whole notion of fixed shebangs already breaks this idea |
| 2021-06-23 06:41:05 | <Solid> | that is true |
| 2021-06-23 06:41:24 | <Solid> | well, one could always shout at people not writing /bin/sh scripts :> |
| 2021-06-23 06:47:42 | <dminuoso> | https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/sh.html#tag_20_117_16 |
| 2021-06-23 06:47:46 | <dminuoso> | `Furthermore, on systems that support executable scripts (the "#!" construct), it is recommended that applications using executable scripts install them using getconf PATH to determine the shell pathname and update the "#!" script appropriately as it is being installed (for example, with sed). For example:` |
| 2021-06-23 06:48:20 | <dminuoso> | NExt up |
| 2021-06-23 06:48:22 | <dminuoso> | Applications should note that the standard PATH to the shell cannot be assumed to be either /bin/sh or /usr/bin/sh, and should be determined by interrogation of the PATH returned by getconf PATH, ensuring that the returned pathname is an absolute pathname and not a shell built-in. |
| 2021-06-23 06:48:30 | <dminuoso> | Solid: So even /bin/sh is a problematic assumption |
| 2021-06-23 06:48:32 | × | backleet quits (~backleet@user/backleet) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-06-23 06:49:05 | <dminuoso> | In reality even nix admits /bin/sh for convenience |
| 2021-06-23 06:50:14 | <dminuoso> | λ ~/ command -v sh ~ |
| 2021-06-23 06:50:16 | <dminuoso> | /run/current-system/sw/bin/sh |
| 2021-06-23 06:50:20 | <dminuoso> | Guess that works |
| 2021-06-23 06:51:18 | <Solid> | oh wow, that actually surprises me |
| 2021-06-23 06:52:52 | <dminuoso> | From experience, nowadays few developers even know what POSIX means or ever bothered to look up any of its specifications. |
| 2021-06-23 06:53:28 | <dminuoso> | Hell, I know I rarely do |
| 2021-06-23 06:54:37 | <dminuoso> | Presumably its the same thing with people writing windowed applications, dont think most look up the (extremely scarce) documentation or even know what ICCCM or EWMH even is |
| 2021-06-23 06:55:09 | <dminuoso> | From all my experience, you have to be a geekosaur to know what you're doing with X. |
| 2021-06-23 06:56:37 | <Solid> | yes, that has been my impression as well |
| 2021-06-23 06:56:56 | <Solid> | I wonder if it'll be better for wayland |
| 2021-06-23 07:02:50 | dminuoso | admits he has absolutely no clue how wayland works differently, or where things are specified |
| 2021-06-23 07:03:10 | <dminuoso> | All I know is that, as an xmonad user, I likely wont even try wayland any time soon |
| 2021-06-23 07:03:28 | <dminuoso> | waymonad seems to have stalled pretty much |
| 2021-06-23 07:10:32 | <liskin> | Some folks were trying to revive it during ZuriHac. As far as I know they're still to this day trying to get it to build. |
| 2021-06-23 07:11:56 | <Solid> | yeah I'd imagine the haskell bindings for wlroots need some work for that |
| 2021-06-23 07:12:10 | <Solid> | although I remember the maintainer of taffybar saying he managed to build it |
| 2021-06-23 07:12:20 | <Solid> | s/he/they/ |
| 2021-06-23 07:12:39 | <liskin> | But I think everything will just be worse anyway. X started in an era where having standards was considered a good thing. Wayland comes from an era where standardization is seen as an avoidable overhead. |
| 2021-06-23 07:13:16 | <liskin> | Yeah Ivan has a couple commits in waymonad. |
| 2021-06-23 07:15:04 | <Solid> | oh apparently there is an active fork now |
| 2021-06-23 07:15:06 | <Solid> | https://github.com/L-as/waymonad |
| 2021-06-23 07:15:23 | <liskin> | Yeah that's the ZuriHac folks |
| 2021-06-23 07:15:26 | <Solid> | and it seems to build with nix at least |
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