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2020-09-18 14:10:08 × yoneda quits (~mike@193.206.102.122) (Quit: leaving)
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2020-09-18 14:19:06 × raichoo quits (~raichoo@213.240.178.58) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-09-18 14:20:28 hackage polysemy-http 0.2.0.3 - Polysemy effect for http-client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-http-0.2.0.3 (tek)
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2020-09-18 14:24:15 <exarkun> I guess there are some build issues.
2020-09-18 14:24:16 <galagora> Hey, any Hackage trustees willing to fix https://github.com/haskell/base16-bytestring/issues/14?
2020-09-18 14:25:29 → Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-09-18 14:25:51 <Uniaika> topos: ^
2020-09-18 14:25:58 <Uniaika> ah no, sorry
2020-09-18 14:26:33 × hiroaki quits (~hiroaki@ip4d176049.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-18 14:26:41 <Uniaika> I think hvr_ is one, though
2020-09-18 14:27:10 → ericsagnes joins (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:e056:335b:f7b5:b6ee)
2020-09-18 14:27:59 <merijn> This is what you get when people say they shouldn't add upperbounds on dependencies because "updating them is too much work" >.> then they end up breaking everyone else when their dependencies update >.>
2020-09-18 14:28:09 × cantstanya quits (~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-18 14:28:18 → perdent joins (~k4fr@91.132.136.84)
2020-09-18 14:28:43 <maerwald> That's why distros test reverse dependencies before pushing new versions
2020-09-18 14:30:25 → cantstanya joins (~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya)
2020-09-18 14:30:29 <maerwald> Or just don't change your API all the time :)
2020-09-18 14:30:40 → eric_ joins (~eric@2804:431:c7d4:402a:ddd2:a3e8:bfe7:970)
2020-09-18 14:30:46 <maerwald> Deprecation warnings are a thing too
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2020-09-18 14:32:17 <merijn> Or you follow the PVP
2020-09-18 14:32:50 <maerwald> That's what got us into cabal hell in the first place
2020-09-18 14:33:06 <maerwald> but I think that's a philosophical discussion
2020-09-18 14:33:09 × cfricke quits (~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
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2020-09-18 14:33:55 notzmv` is now known as notzmv
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2020-09-18 14:35:01 <maerwald> the semantic difference of ^>= isn't really used in practice, is it?
2020-09-18 14:35:06 → Sanchayan joins (~Sanchayan@106.200.239.146)
2020-09-18 14:35:17 × eric_ quits (~eric@2804:431:c7d4:402a:ddd2:a3e8:bfe7:970) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-18 14:35:51 <merijn> maerwald: You can only relax only ^>= when building, iirc
2020-09-18 14:37:18 <merijn> maerwald: I advertise that my packages follow the PVP, I refuse to take on additional testing responsibilities because other people write shitty bounds when they depend on my code and I think that sorta "extra unpaid labour" is toxic to open source as a whole
2020-09-18 14:37:26 × dansho quits (~dansho@ip68-108-167-185.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-09-18 14:37:37 <maerwald> merijn: that's what CI is for
2020-09-18 14:37:48 <maerwald> distros have been doing this for 20+ years
2020-09-18 14:38:03 <merijn> maerwald: I do CI, to see if *my* stuff builds
2020-09-18 14:38:11 <maerwald> we already have hackage CI
2020-09-18 14:38:41 <merijn> That doesn't build candidates, afaik
2020-09-18 14:38:46 <merijn> So that doesn't help
2020-09-18 14:39:05 <maerwald> Yes, it needs to be extended
2020-09-18 14:39:08 <merijn> Because it only notices breakage when you release a new version, at which point it's already the problem of "stuff depending on you"
2020-09-18 14:39:22 × gestone quits (~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2020-09-18 14:39:44 <maerwald> these aren't hard problems... it's just work and infrastructure someone has to pay
2020-09-18 14:39:49 <merijn> maerwald: And then what? Something that depends on my stuff breaks, now I have to someone annoy a maintainer of some obscure package to fix it before releasing my stuff?
2020-09-18 14:40:04 <maerwald> yes, that's called communication :p
2020-09-18 14:40:18 <maerwald> you publish a release candidate so to speak
2020-09-18 14:40:33 <merijn> maerwald: Right, so we "just" need to solve the "funding open source development" problem...I'm sure that's an easy problem we'll fix in no time!
2020-09-18 14:40:53 <maerwald> then CI picks up your release candidate, builds reverse deps with it and sends emails to maintainers
2020-09-18 14:40:57 <maerwald> can all be automated
2020-09-18 14:41:06 <maerwald> none of this is difficult
2020-09-18 14:41:20 <merijn> maerwald: I await your patches enthusiastically, then ;)
2020-09-18 14:41:53 <maerwald> I don't believe tooling makes a healthy ecosystem. CI and communication does.
2020-09-18 14:43:14 <merijn> I believe communicating is another dose of "extra unpaid responsibility" which is not something that can be expected from unpaid volunteers :)
2020-09-18 14:43:25 → heatsink joins (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b0dc:6c54:247b:ece)
2020-09-18 14:43:34 <maerwald> well, if you don't care about anything or anyone, keep your package on github
2020-09-18 14:43:36 <yushyin> so why can't there be upperbounds and also emails to inform maintainer to update the bounds? So I can release my stuff without breaking other stuff.
2020-09-18 14:43:39 <yushyin> :/
2020-09-18 14:44:08 <merijn> yushyin: Well, that's what I advocated
2020-09-18 14:44:13 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-18 14:44:17 <yushyin> ok!
2020-09-18 14:44:39 <merijn> yushyin: But there's a group of "aggressively anti-upperbounds" people
2020-09-18 14:45:13 <maerwald> don't turn this into politics :)
2020-09-18 14:45:24 <merijn> Who argue that you should never have those, because bumping them on release is too much work, but magically breaking build-plans when your dependencies update is not more work
2020-09-18 14:45:32 <merijn> maerwald: *everything* is politics
2020-09-18 14:45:43 <phadej> it is politics. There are rational arguments, but they are dismissed
2020-09-18 14:46:11 → xerox_ joins (~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-09-18 14:46:28 <merijn> And "multi-billion tech corporations offloading all their maintenance work on unpaid open source volunteers" is *especially* politics
2020-09-18 14:47:07 <maerwald> merijn: weird, when I worked on linux distros for half a decade, no one paid me and we still pulled it off
2020-09-18 14:47:48 × heatsink quits (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b0dc:6c54:247b:ece) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-18 14:47:52 <maerwald> so yes, you can decide different routes and they have different problems
2020-09-18 14:48:03 <merijn> maerwald: I'm not saying it can't be done
2020-09-18 14:48:16 <merijn> I'm saying that building a world where that's normal is morally wrong
2020-09-18 14:48:49 × Thra11 quits (~Thra11@5.1.169.217.in-addr.arpa) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-09-18 14:48:57 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-18 14:49:08 <merijn> maerwald: I'd like a world where you *wouldn't* have to do that unpaid work just to keep digital infrastructure from collapsing
2020-09-18 14:49:39 → Thra11 joins (~Thra11@5.1.169.217.in-addr.arpa)
2020-09-18 14:49:43 <maerwald> merijn: I don't think it makes anything collapse, that's why you pin hackage state
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